OT: Are El Paso's MLS hopes dead?

UTEPDefense

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Maybe Kappy or someone might be able to add some insight about this? Is there any type of update regarding El Paso's MLS Bid? MLS just announced expansion, but they listed 7 cities(including San Antonio and Austin) as possibilities, yet they did not list El Paso. I checked the Mountain Star Website, which was created for El Paso getting a MLS Expansion Team (bringitmls.com), but they have taken the website down.

I am wondering if maybe Mountain Star decided to place their resources into the Bravos(who have a chance at making the top league of Mexican Soccer), instead of pursuing a less likely MLS team?

Does anybody have an update regarding Mountain Star and MLS?
 

nattybry

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Maybe Kappy or someone might be able to add some insight about this? Is there any type of update regarding El Paso's MLS Bid? MLS just announced expansion, but they listed 7 cities(including San Antonio and Austin) as possibilities, yet they did not list El Paso. I checked the Mountain Star Website, which was created for El Paso getting a MLS Expansion Team (bringitmls.com), but they have taken the website down.

I am wondering if maybe Mountain Star decided to place their resources into the Bravos(who have a chance at making the top league of Mexican Soccer), instead of pursuing a less likely MLS team?

Does anybody have an update regarding Mountain Star and MLS?
Sad :(
 

kickballpro

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The MLS decided a while back that El Paso was not ready or far enough along to bring in an MLS team.

So the ownership group switched their focus to try and get a Liga MX team and started FC Juarez.

Mountain Star wants FC Juarez to be in the top league in Mexico and that's their current focus. They tried soccer at Southwest University Park and at the Sun Bowl and neither impressed. I would think best case scenario would be that FC Juarez plays a couple of regular season games in El Paso once they are promoted.
 

MineroFanatico

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If FC Juarez isn't granted entry into Liga MX, perhaps it should look into affiliation with the MLS. Pretty sure Cananda has three teams in. Why not a team from Mexico that sits right on the US border?
 

JCorona

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If FC Juarez isn't granted entry into Liga MX, perhaps it should look into affiliation with the MLS. Pretty sure Cananda has three teams in. Why not a team from Mexico that sits right on the US border?
Canada doesn't have an official soccer league and that's why those teams play in the MLS. There is no way LIga MX would allow a Mexican team based in Mexico to compete in the MLS.

Before the Bravos I had a similar thought. I was thinking what if El Paso got a soccer team to play in the LIga MX. Once again politics will not allow that to happen.
 
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UTEPDefense

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Somebody feel free to correct me if I am wrong, but my understanding of the situation is that FC Juarez won the first half of the season and now they will play the winner of the second half of the season in a Home & Home Series, and the winner will get promoted up to Liga MX?

That would be incredible for Mountain Star, especially considering this is their very first year. From a competition standpoint, LigaMX is still clearly at a higher level than MLS(particularly based on how LigaMX teams have handled MLS when they play eachother), so by qualifying for LigaMX, Mountain Star would kinda be skipping over MLS in some ways. So this upcoming championship series will be huge for the area.

With all that being said, i'm not sure how this really helps El Paso specifically, other than continuing to strengthen the fact that we have a very strong Ownership Group in place here. Of course El Paso would never build a Soccer Stadium for a FC Juarez team and with the issues that JCORONA mentioned, I am not sure how much crossover into El Paso could be accomplished? As KickballPro said, maybe if after being promoted to LigaMX, then if FCJuarez was able to qualify for the CONCACAF Champions League, where they would play some games against MLS teams, I wonder if some of those games might be played in El Paso?
 

JCorona

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Yes that is correct the Bravos will play a H&H with the winner being promoted to 1st division. It's an incredible accomplishment to achieve futbol success so quickly. It doesn't really help El Paso in any way. It does strengthen Mountain Stars resume. They can lean back on the chihuahuas and Bravos success when trying to lure a professional team to the El Paso area.

Don't expect for the Bravos to play any meaningful games at the Sun Bowl. I'm not sure if it's against the rules but all we ever get is exhibition games. Imagine the out roar in EP if the chihuahuas made the championship game and they decided to have the game in Juarez stadium. It would be similar if the Bravos made the CONCACAF champions and they moved the games to El Paso.
 

kickballpro

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Canada doesn't have an official soccer league and that's why those teams play in the MLS. There is no way LIga MX would allow a Mexican team based in Mexico to compete in the MLS.

Before the Bravos I had a similar thought. I was thinking what if El Paso got a soccer team to play in the LIga MX. Once again politics will not allow that to happen.

Prior to MLS, LA and San Jose were going to become part of the 2nd Division of Mexican Soccer with chance of promotion to the first division. FIFA stopped the idea by establishing a territorial boundary between the US and Mexico. Mexican teams can not be in a US league and US teams can not be in a Mexican League. However, FIFA never established a territorial boundary between the US and Canada.
 
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JCorona

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Prior to MLS, LA and San Jose were going to become part of the 2nd Division of Mexican Soccer with chance of promotion to the first division. FIFA stopped the idea by establishing a territorial boundary between the US and Mexico. Mexican teams can not be in a US league and US teams can not be in a Mexican League. However, FIFA never established a territorial boundary between the US and Canada.
Yea that makes more sense than my explanation. I knew something bigger wouldn't allow such scenarios.
 

Rot

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Well at this point El Paso is not on the radar screen of MLS executives. I'm not sure what went wrong but we are not mentioned in the list of top seven expansion cities. Mountain Star has done a great job with both the Chihuahuas and Bravos. MS ownership has the money, is based in EP and will be here for the long haul. I think a MLS team in El Paso would do great. We have a great soccer fan base, nice weather and no competition with other ML franchises. The new MLS stadiums being built are smaller in the 25k - 30k range. EP will not have a hard time bringing in fans. EP has experienced a resurgence in projects in down town and other parts on the city. I think bringing MLS to El Paso would catapult this city to a different level. I hope MLS reconsiders and adds El Paso to their top two waiting list.
 

Minerforlife

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El Paso was never a serious canidate. There are several major issues working against us. The biggest is our market size. We arent a top 50 tv market. MLS does great in stadium, but struggles mightily in tv ratings. El Paso would be the smallest market in any of the four major sports plus MLS, with the exception of Green Bay which is a very unique case, and market size doesnt matter in the NFL.
The second problem is there is no regional sports network to carry games in El Paso. MLS teams make alot of money by saling the broadcast rights to their home games. There are two major regional sports networks in Texas. CSN Houston, and Fox sports southwest. Neither of them would be interested in carrying El Paso MLS games. We are too far outside of their geographic footprint and bring too few eyeballs for foxssw to be interested.
The biggest problem mentioned earlier is that this just isnt a soccer city. Soccer doesnt sell in El Paso. They have tried big events and they never sell well.The three biggest clubs in Mexico, America, Cruz Azul and Chivas have all played in the Sun Bowl, and none of the games have attracted more than 22,000 people. Liga MX is a 100 times more popular than MLS in El Paso, and even their clubs dont generate ticket sales in El Paso.
El Paso is still a price sensitive market. For MLS you need to average more than 17,000 a game. Thats more than twice as many as the Chihuahuas average and the tickets would three times more expensive.
The MLS is interested in Austin and San Antonio. There is a ton of money available in both cities. Their markets are much bigger and their demograhics are much better suited for MLS than El Paso's. San Antonio has already approved a 25,000 seat stadium Toyota Park. In Austin there is a plan for a new arena for Whorns, and an MLS stadium on the site of the old Austin American Statesman building. San Antonio will get a team first, but I dont think Austin will be far behind. MLS likes to add geographic rivals.
 

nattybry

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El Paso was never a serious canidate. There are several major issues working against us. The biggest is our market size. We arent a top 50 tv market. MLS does great in stadium, but struggles mightily in tv ratings. El Paso would be the smallest market in any of the four major sports plus MLS, with the exception of Green Bay which is a very unique case, and market size doesnt matter in the NFL.
The second problem is there is no regional sports network to carry games in El Paso. MLS teams make alot of money by saling the broadcast rights to their home games. There are two major regional sports networks in Texas. CSN Houston, and Fox sports southwest. Neither of them would be interested in carrying El Paso MLS games. We are too far outside of their geographic footprint and bring too few eyeballs for foxssw to be interested.
The biggest problem mentioned earlier is that this just isnt a soccer city. Soccer doesnt sell in El Paso. They have tried big events and they never sell well.The three biggest clubs in Mexico, America, Cruz Azul and Chivas have all played in the Sun Bowl, and none of the games have attracted more than 22,000 people. Liga MX is a 100 times more popular than MLS in El Paso, and even their clubs dont generate ticket sales in El Paso.
El Paso is still a price sensitive market. For MLS you need to average more than 17,000 a game. Thats more than twice as many as the Chihuahuas average and the tickets would three times more expensive.
The MLS is interested in Austin and San Antonio. There is a ton of money available in both cities. Their markets are much bigger and their demograhics are much better suited for MLS than El Paso's. San Antonio has already approved a 25,000 seat stadium Toyota Park. In Austin there is a plan for a new arena for Whorns, and an MLS stadium on the site of the old Austin American Statesman building. San Antonio will get a team first, but I dont think Austin will be far behind. MLS likes to add geographic rivals.
I don't think the Market size is necessarily correct in this instance as Mountain Star made clear in the forefront of all this El Paso, Las Cruces and J town were being considered as a combined region. Now even though for TV ratings and market size J town isn't considered Las Cruces is now considered part of CSA and is one of the reason this region is beginning to slowly get thongs we didn't have a chance at before since the combined two cities exceed 1 million. I disagree totally that its not a soccer city! People in this city r smart and understand that MLS is the top league in this country and it would be supported even grater than the Chihuahu without question. Its sad that this looks like its fading. Also SA and Austin will never both get a team being less than 80 miles a way, I don't even know why u believed that to be realistic!
 

Minerforlife

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I don't think the Market size is necessarily correct in this instance as Mountain Star made clear in the forefront of all this El Paso, Las Cruces and J town were being considered as a combined region. Now even though for TV ratings and market size J town isn't considered Las Cruces is now considered part of CSA and is one of the reason this region is beginning to slowly get thongs we didn't have a chance at before since the combined two cities exceed 1 million. I disagree totally that its not a soccer city! People in this city r smart and understand that MLS is the top league in this country and it would be supported even grater than the Chihuahu without question. Its sad that this looks like its fading. Also SA and Austin will never both get a team being less than 80 miles a way, I don't even know why u believed that to be realistic!

The El Paso Las Cruces tv market is the 92nd biggest in the USA. Barely a top 100 market and nowhere near large enough to attract any pro sports league. To have a realistic chance El Paso would have to be a top 40 market. Thats not happening anytime soon. As far as Austin and San Antonio. Like I said San Antonio will get a team first. However, Austin will eventually get a team. MLS likes to establish darbys. Austin and San Antonio would be a good one. Distance is not an issue. Sacramento is getting a team and they are only 100 miles from San Jose.
 

JCorona

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How can El Paso move up the TV market ladder? Population wise we are top 20 city. As far as tv we find ourselves on the outside looking in. Do we need more people in he El Paso/Las Cruces region to subscribe to cable or satellite? What can we do to crack the top 50?
 

UTEPMiners8106

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With everything working against the city (market size, money etc) we didn't have a chance to begin with. What do we bring to the table that would make El Paso a more attractive option over San Antonio or Austin?
 

JCorona

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With everything working against the city (market size, money etc) we didn't have a chance to begin with. What do we bring to the table that would make El Paso a more attractive option over San Antonio or Austin?
The thing we had going in our favor was "the whole border town we can attract fans from Mexico ." With Juarez having their own team we don't have that edge anymore. We also had the "we might build a new downtown soccer arena." Now we've heard the city say it will be a 14,000 capacity arena so that advantage is also out the window.

You're right we didn't have a chance just a bunch of talk.
 
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CubsFan81

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MLS would never make it in EP. Juarez doesn't give a rats behind about MLS. They are all Liga MX fans and they believe Liga MX is a better league than MLS. And like Minerforlife stated, attendance was pathetic when their top teams came to play here in the Sun Bowl. Plus the average MLS ticket is $40, so I don't see more than 200 hundred people from Juarez crossing over per game and attending the game. El Paso does have a lot of soccer fans, but the majority follow the Mexican leagues. And once again, when those big teams played in the Sun Bowl, attendance sucked. Plus throw in the average ticket price of $40, most El Pasoans can't afford that. Taking a family of 4 to single game would be like $200. Then Cruces....I don't see more than 500-1000 people attending games. So in reality I don't see average attendance being more than 5,000 on weekends and 3,000 on weekdays, and thats if the team is a winning team, if they suck then divide those figures by 2. El Paso is a baseball and Dallas Cowboys city, not a soccer city.

As for MLS teams in San Antonio and Austin.....I can see it happening. Like Minerforlife stated, MLS loves those geographic rivals. Both of those cities have the TV markets and both cities have people with money who can easily afford the ticket prices.
 
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Minerforlife

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How can El Paso move up the TV market ladder? Population wise we are top 20 city. As far as tv we find ourselves on the outside looking in. Do we need more people in he El Paso/Las Cruces region to subscribe to cable or satellite? What can we do to crack the top 50?

Only way is build up suburbs. The problem with El Paso is the city is big the metro area is very small. We would need explosive unprecedented growth outside the city in El Paso and dona ana counties. To put how small our tv market is in perspective, we are five spots below Waco.
 

UTEPDefense

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A new MLS Soccer Stadium was initially part of the Arena Bond Election that passed a few years ago. It was taken off of that bond project relatively early, because Council really wanted to get those other projects through and they were fearful that keeping the MLS Stadium as a part of the entire package would provide too much "Sticker Shock" for the Voters. But part of the original study for that bond was public and it did list many potential areas in downtown where both the arena and MLS stadium could be located.

My fear about the arena, is that with naturally rising material & labor costs, that every year that passes means that we will get a smaller and smaller arena. Remember even the Ballpark went over budget by a few million dollars and it also had to be cut back from the original design(i.e. the original plans had a waterfall behind left field, but that had to be stripped from the project) despite the fact that the Ballpark was built in record time. You can't build the same arena today for the same price that you could build one for 5 years ago and next year will already mark the 5th year since the arena bond passed. So every year that passes means less and less features will be included in the arena.

Regarding the Bravos and MLS, if they are going to remain El Paso's only local professional option, then it will be interesting to see what ideas MLS can bring to create more of a fan base/unity amongst us El Pasoans? The Bravos have both a Spanish and English Twitter account, yet the English account has not made a new post in almost 2 months?(missing the entire end of the season).
 
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Minerinciter

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What about getting a USMNT and/ or USWNT friendly or World Cup qualifying match to the Sun Bowl instead?
 

nattybry

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The El Paso Las Cruces tv market is the 92nd biggest in the USA. Barely a top 100 market and nowhere near large enough to attract any pro sports league. To have a realistic chance El Paso would have to be a top 40 market. Thats not happening anytime soon. As far as Austin and San Antonio. Like I said San Antonio will get a team first. However, Austin will eventually get a team. MLS likes to establish darbys. Austin and San Antonio would be a good one. Distance is not an issue. Sacramento is getting a team and they are only 100 miles from San Jose.
What's Salt Lake City's TV market? Tell me its below 60 and I'll take you to lunch! I admit I don't understand TV markets completely and how we would be 92 in TV Market, with 1.1 million people in the two counties. Also if this was never really a possibility, then why was it even mentioned and attempted and even man sought out for a stadium and MLS even mentioned El Paso/LC
 

Minerforlife

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What's Salt Lake City's TV market? Tell me its below 60 and I'll take you to lunch! I admit I don't understand TV markets completely and how we would be 92 in TV Market, with 1.1 million people in the two counties. Also if this was never really a possibility, then why was it even mentioned and attempted and even man sought out for a stadium and MLS even mentioned El Paso/LC

Salt Lake City is 34th in tv markets. I think the first step is to cultivate a soccer following and culture. Start with a USL team. They can play in Southwest University Park. The teams in Reno and Tampa both play in minor league baseball stadiums. MLS was a possibility because Jorge Vergara used to own Chivas USA in a addidion to Chivas Guadalajara. His wife is from El Paso and he had poisoned well in LA. The problem was the MLS was dead set on there being two teams in LA. They were also upset the team was used as a minor league team for their mexican counterparts. The MLS forced Vergara out as owner disolved chivas usa and sold their rights to a group headd by magic johnson. The team is being rebranded fc LA.
 
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nattybry

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Salt Lake City is 34th in tv markets. I think the first step is to cultivate a soccer following and culture. Start with a USL team. They can play in Southwest University Park. The teams in Reno and Tampa both play in minor league baseball stadiums. MLS was a possibility because Jorge Vergara used to own Chivas USA in a addidion to Chivas Guadalajara. His wife is from El Paso and he had poisoned well in LA. The problem was the MLS was dead set on there being two teams in LA. They were also upset the team was used as a minor league team for their mexican counterparts. The MLS forced Vergara out as owner disolved chivas usa and sold their rights to a group headd by magic johnson. The team is being rebranded fc LA.
Ok I'm convinced TV market has more components then population, cause Salt lake is not a Big city, but I guess they consider the whole state since Salt Lake City dominates and viewers watch from the entire state!
 

colominer

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The Spur's ownership group is behind the San Antonio MLS franchise. That's pretty tough to compete with. The MLS has been taking off in the last few years, with higher player salaries and an increased level of play. The barriers to entry are much higher now than just a few years ago. Five years ago it might have been realistic to try for a franchise in EP but it's much more unlikely now.
 

UTEPMiners8106

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Everyone wants to say Juarez is this great benefit to El Paso which I doubt it helps that much. Yes Juarez is a huge city but the majority of people from Juarez don't come to El Paso thus they don't spend money here and I really doubt many of them watch/understand US TV. So what's the real benefit?
 

kickballpro

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Everyone wants to say Juarez is this great benefit to El Paso which I doubt it helps that much. Yes Juarez is a huge city but the majority of people from Juarez don't come to El Paso thus they don't spend money here and I really doubt many of them watch/understand US TV. So what's the real benefit?

I think Golden Corral would disagree with you.
 
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JCorona

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Ha ha! And every Ross store as well. I stand corrected.
I was going to say have you ever been to a Ross store? No kidding but sometimes I look at a Ross parking lot and I get confused wondering if I'm still in the USA. Every car will have Chihuhuas plates with maybe two or three cars from New Mexico and there will be one Texas plate parked all the way in the back.

Six or seven years ago we had three Ross stores in the entire city the one on Yarbrough, Basset and Sunland Park. Now we have one in every corner. With news of the Kmart on Montwood closing I wouldn't be surprised if it gets turned into a Ross.
 

CS4

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Just in case anyone is interested, here are some more details on the differences between cities, metropolitan areas, primary statistical areas, television markets, and how those are defined:

Here are some maps showing the boundaries of TV markets:

http://bl.ocks.org/simzou/6459889

http://dishuser.org/TVMarkets/

Here are the TV market rankings:

http://www.tvb.org/media/file/2015-2016-dma-ranks.pdf (El Paso, Hudspeth, Culberson, and Dona Ana Counties, #92)

Here are the population rankings of cities, metropolitan areas, and primary statistical areas:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_cities_by_population (El Paso #19)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Metropolitan_Statistical_Areas (El Paso and Hudspeth Counties, #68)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_primary_statistical_areas_of_the_United_States (El Paso, Hudspeth, and Dona Ana Counties, #59)

Here is a map showing boundaries of metropolitan areas:

http://www.novoco.com/new_markets/resource_files/maps_data/cbsa_us_1203_large.gif (a bit out of date)


By comparison, Salt Lake City is only the 124th largest city and the 48th largest metro area (including cities such as West Valley City, West Jordan, South Jordan), but the 26th largest primary statistical area (including Provo and Ogden) and the 34th television market (including all of Utah and parts of Wyoming, Idaho, and Nevada).
 
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nattybry

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Everyone wants to say Juarez is this great benefit to El Paso which I doubt it helps that much. Yes Juarez is a huge city but the majority of people from Juarez don't come to El Paso thus they don't spend money here and I really doubt many of them watch/understand US TV. So what's the real benefit?
Thats utterly and completely in accurate and untrue!!!! They spend millions in El Paso!!!!!!!! Are u from here?
 

UTEPMiners8106

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Yes I am from here, and yes they spend money here I get that. But it is a third world country and the vast majority of people from Juarez don't have the money to afford a visa let alone spend money in El Paso. El Paso and Juarez isn't a Ft. Worth/Dallas situation. The vast majority of money they spend in El Paso is in retail.
 

JCorona

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Even third world countries have people with money. I'm not sure what you mean by Ft Worth/Dallas situation but the Mexicans pump millions of dollars into the El Paso economy. Last article I read says they spend close to 450 million dollars in a year.

The rest of the country looks at El Paso like a third world country. Why don't we have a Cheesecake Factory? Because business executives don't think we can afford a restaurant with $20 plates. Obviously we all know that's a bunch of bs. Why don't we have a Lacoste store? Because executives don't think we can afford $90 polos. Once again I call bs on that.

Is it fair to group an entire city together and say the vast majority can't afford it?
 

UTEPMiners8106

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Look, I'm not saying they don't support our economy. I know that. But the vast majority of people in Juarez make next to nothing and don't come and spend their money in El Paso. They had a professional soccer team and it's failed, twice. Granted I understand that a major reason for Indios failing was all the violence in Juarez but I think if anything is to succeed in El Paso it has to be because El Pasoans make it succeed. Do you get what I am saying? The city built that baseball stadium and the games are packed which I love, and you can tell the majority of the fans are El Pasoans. UTEP football/basketball is gonna live and die by how many El Pasoans it can draw. If the city were to get an MLS it would be on this city to make it succeed.
 

JCorona

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Miners8106 you originally asked what we El Paso brought to the table that Austin or San Antonio didn't. I answered your question by saying the Juarez MX market. I didn't pull that out of a hat. That is the angle the city and Mountain Star used to get the attention of MLS.

I get what you're saying but obviously the MLS doesn't see much value in the El Paso, Juarez, Las Cruces region let alone El Paso on its own.
 

UTEPMiners8106

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And what I'm telling you is the Juarez market is not a selling point for any team. It really is almost a non factor. How many big events/projects has El Paso had that you can point to and say, "if not for Juarez and all the zillions of dollars they bring we would not have THIS." I will say when Vicente Fernandez, Alejandro Fernandez, Mana and those types of groups come that's probably in part because of Juarez. But what else?

The point has been made that Liga MX teams have played in the Sun Bowl and I would assume that the game was advertised in Juarez. Mountain Star Sports was talking all that game saying that Chivas game was gonna be a test run to see how people in Juarez and El Paso would support soccer in this city. I bet they felt like they could pull in the people from Juarez and look at what happened? Correct me if I'm wrong but didn't the game pull in somewhere in the low 20,000s? None of the games featuring Liga MX teams were runaway successes. And they brought in Chivas and Cruz Azul. It's not like they brought in Dorados or Jaguares as the feature team. Juarez and El Paso did not come out in droves like people thought and I think that killed the MLS dream before it started.

A lot of teams and events have been brought to El Paso by people who look at the demographics and say "There are over 1 million people here.. easy money." I distinctly remember the owner of the indoor football team saying to that effect and look at what happened. That thing bombed. So please give me a reason other than, "We bring the Juarez market" and "they spend money here." I would love an MLS team as much you probably do but the reality is Juarez isn't as much of a help as you want to believe. The economics tell you.
 

nattybry

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Yes I am from here, and yes they spend money here I get that. But it is a third world country and the vast majority of people from Juarez don't have the money to afford a visa let alone spend money in El Paso. El Paso and Juarez isn't a Ft. Worth/Dallas situation. The vast majority of money they spend in El Paso is in retail.
I agree with that. Retail and Restaurant. I don't think J town would help with MLS team either, but I think EP/LC would. Its different in supporting a La Liga team from MX and supporting our own team especially a Professional Team which I think this region would gladly support!
 

CubsFan81

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El Paso doesn't have the money to support MLS. The cheapest Dynamo ticket is $28 for general admission, not including all the service fees on top of that. Thats high for the average El Pasoan. And its not like every ticket in the stadium is going to be $28, maybe few thousand at the most. Then prices go up to like $90 after that. No way in hell El Paso can support that. Then if the team has a losing record, nobody attend games and pay at least $28 bucks per ticket.

Plus I see a MLS soccer team in El Paso having a very difficult time getting good free agent players to want to come play here when they can go to cities like Dallas, LA, New York, Houston, etc..

And like I said earlier, Juarez isn't going to give a S*** about a MLS team in El Paso. The majority of people in Juarez don't even know what MLS is. Go to restaurants in Juarez and you will only see Mexican league games on the TV's or European teams on when there are no Mexican league games on. My wife is from Juarez and we go over at least once a week and I have only seen one MLS soccer game on at a restaurant and not one single person in there was watching it.

There is a reason why Mountain Star shifted from MLS to the Bravos because MLS did all the research and found out that MLS would not work in El Paso. And its pretty obvious the risks outweigh the benefits.
 

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