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Max Grossman wants to keep Downtown El Paso a DUMP

As of right now in this point of time I wouldn't be too reactionary because the economic factors for "highest and best use" of the buildings that benefits potential buyers, investors and city are there.....as of right now. As well chronicled in El Paso's history is the "paralysis by analysis" and political impotence over the last forty to fifty years that made investment and greener fortunes move elsewhere, like Phoenix. Downtown is moving in a positive direction but if politicians choose sides and nothing moves investors will go elsewhere.

Public and private interests work hand in hand with each other in american society, they both need each other. This happens every day, 24/7. But in all honesty, it usually takes government to get the ball rolling. Investors by nature, wait and see and keep the money in the bank so to speak until they see a positive move forward for investment. Tim Foster is a great example. Yes most of his public work is philanthropic but he will not invest in something if the public side does not show they are willing to invest in the community development as well.
 
Grossman and his group asked the city to relocate the arena 1 block and hasn’t heard back. You can blame him for a lot, but the city is at fault as well.
 
minermaniac2023 said:
Grossman and his group asked the city to relocate the arena 1 block and hasn’t heard back. You can blame him for a lot, but the city is at fault as well.
Click to expand...

Where was Grossman prior to the arena ever being thought of? Only until after voters approved the arena did Grossman decide Duranguito was a "historical site" worth preserving. This guy is so full of shit. He's looking for a payday under the table, and the city is telling him to go F himself. Raze the dump already and build the arena.
 
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Grossman is a egomaniac pos. Right when El Paso got rid of Billy Abraham then Grossman popped up to take his place. He has unilaterally derailed the arena. The neighborhood he wants to save was a market failure. If there is anywhere to put the new arena it is in the area planned.

Grossman needs to get out of town.
 
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minermaniac2023 said:
Grossman and his group asked the city to relocate the arena 1 block and hasn’t heard back. You can blame him for a lot, but the city is at fault as well.
Click to expand...

"In February 2018, the city offered to move the MPC footprint within the Downtown area, but Bryan did not appear at the mediation. Bryan was also asked to purchase buildings within the footprint but declined the option."

https://cbs4local.com/news/local/ci...close-out-litigation-involving-downtown-arena

The city has twice offered Grossman and his Billionaire partner the opportunity to purchase the buildings in duranguito and both times they have declined. Grossman's billionaire partner has already spent between $1 and $2 million dollars in legal fee's(fee's which continue to rise), when instead he has twice had the option of purchasing these buildings for a total number between $15 and $16 million. I find it odd that they want to save the buildings so bad, yet refuse to take ownership of them, when that is the easiest way to save them? Obviously, these buildings are not worth the money and not worth saving, which is why they refuse the purchase them.
 
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There is no way downtown will have Southwest Park, an arena, and a soccer stadium for the Locomotive. They will not have enough events to support themselves.
 
UTEPDefense said:
"In February 2018, the city offered to move the MPC footprint within the Downtown area, but Bryan did not appear at the mediation. Bryan was also asked to purchase buildings within the footprint but declined the option."

https://cbs4local.com/news/local/ci...close-out-litigation-involving-downtown-arena

The city has twice offered Grossman and his Billionaire partner the opportunity to purchase the buildings in duranguito and both times they have declined. Grossman's billionaire partner has already spent between $1 and $2 million dollars in legal fee's(fee's which continue to rise), when instead he has twice had the option of purchasing these buildings for a total number between $15 and $16 million. I find it odd that they want to save the buildings so bad, yet refuse to take ownership of them, when that is the easiest way to save them? Obviously, these buildings are not worth the money and not worth saving, which is why they refuse the purchase them.
Click to expand...
Amen!! Why one vocal POS can derail increased quality of life for all of El Paso is beyond me??
 
minermaniac2023 said:
There is no way downtown will have Southwest Park, an arena, and a soccer stadium for the Locomotive. They will not have enough events to support themselves.
Click to expand...
Nope. THAT stadium will be for FC Juarez for when they play their games in El Paso. The Locomotives stadium will be in the area behind center field of Southwest University Park
 
Miner Donkey said:
Amen!! Why one vocal POS can derail increased quality of life for all of El Paso is beyond me??
Click to expand...
You could bring thousands of poor orphans to San Jacinto Plaza to visit Santa and those type of people would be standing in the 'take a picture with Santa line' picketing and telling them it was fake news just because it was held downtown. The only enjoyment they get is protesting other peoples enjoyment.
 
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UTEPMiners8106 said:
The city has been a group of bumbling sh*t-d*cks. Hands down. There was no need to be vague with the language in the proposal.
Click to expand...

I'll admit that I haven't kept up with issue as much as some others have, so if I'm wrong on what I'm about to say, please educate me. My understanding is that the arena was listed on the ballot as a multi-purpose facility, which was approved by the voters. The arena was then taken to court, with the opposition saying that it couldn't host a sports team because that wasn't explicitly stated on the ballot, and some idiot judge agreed with them.

If the above is correct, I don't see how a reasonable person could say that the city did anything wrong. To me it seems clear that a "multi-purpose" facility should be able to host a sports team. I'm sure that it was clear to all of the voters as well.

Was the city supposed to explicitly list every single possible event that could take place at the arena? What if the ballot had explicitly listed sports and concerts, but the city wanted to host "Walking with Dinosaurs"? I would think that this was okay, but some idiot like Grossman could try to make a big fuss over it.

This is why it was listed as "multi-purpose". It was meant to allow for a variety of events, sports included, to be hosted there, without having to try to explicitly list every single type of potential event that could ever possibly ever use the arena. It just sucks that a moron judge ruled over the case.

Again, if I'm all wet with the above, let me know. I'll say my mea culpas, and not comment on the issue again.
 
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MinerManiac said:
I'll admit that I haven't kept up with issue as much as some others have, so if I'm wrong on what I'm about to say, please educate me. My understanding is that the arena was listed on the ballot as a multi-purpose facility, which was approved by the voters. The arena was then taken to court, with the opposition saying that it couldn't host a sports team because that wasn't explicitly stated on the ballot, and some idiot judge agreed with them.

If the above is correct, I don't see how a reasonable person could say that the city did anything wrong. To me it seems clear that a "multi-purpose" facility should be able to host a sports team. I'm sure that it was clear to all of the voters as well.

Was the city supposed to explicitly list every single possible event that could take place at the arena? What if the ballot had explicitly listed sports and concerts, but the city wanted to host "Walking with Dinosaurs"? I would think that this was okay, but some idiot like Grossman could try to make a big fuss over it.

This is why it was listed as "multi-purpose". It was meant to allow for a variety of events, sports included, to be hosted there, without having to try to explicitly list every single type of potential event that could ever possibly ever use the arena. It just sucks that a moron judge ruled over the case.

Again, if I'm all wet with the above, let me know. I'll say my mea culpas, and not comment on the issue again.
Click to expand...

I tried looking online to see if there was a copy of the ballot online. But the best I could find were some articles that are quoted as saying it was supposed to be a “multi-purpose performing arts and entertainment facility located in Downtown El Paso.” I know this is splitting hairs here but I can see why they could argue that it isn’t an arena. You could easily argue/imply they’re talking about a theatre.

The frustrating thing is that they left it open to interpretation. Why not list it as an arena?
 
UTEPMiners8106 said:
I tried looking online to see if there was a copy of the ballot online. But the best I could find were some articles that are quoted as saying it was supposed to be a “multi-purpose performing arts and entertainment facility located in Downtown El Paso.” I know this is splitting hairs here but I can see why they could argue that it isn’t an arena. You could easily argue/imply they’re talking about a theatre.

The frustrating thing is that they left it open to interpretation. Why not list it as an arena?
Click to expand...

$180,000,000 is not theatre money. That was arena money. I don’t know how anyone could assume it was just for a theatre.
 
https://www.elpasotimes.com/story/n...-size-unknown-until-experts-hired/2722919002/

It was called the Multipurpose Cultural and Performing Arts Center on the ballot. The name doesn't exactly scream sports and should have included sports somehow, but I would venture to say that the voters assumed it was to include sports.

The latest ruling is now in favor of sporting events, but Grossman is asking for it to go to the supreme court.

The cost of the arena is now estimated at $250 million and the size would likely be around 14,500 capacity, but all is yet to be determined.

The city has paid about 15 million to acquire properties in Durangito and to pay legal fees. 21 million of the 180 million was set aside for this so apparently they are still under budget. Of course the money lost so far is in the devaluation of the 180 million over time.
 
Last edited:
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minermaniac2023 said:
$180,000,000 is not theatre money. That was arena money. I don’t know how anyone could assume it was just for a theatre.
Click to expand...

I agree with what you’re saying but at the same time the city should NEVER have worded it that way. We all knew it was an arena, but on flip side how many cultural and performing art centers host WWE, NCAA Tournament Games, etc? Madison Square Garden, The Staples Center and so on, those arenas are never referred to cultural/performing arts centers. The language was all jacked up.
 
axingfools1 said:
https://www.elpasotimes.com/story/n...-size-unknown-until-experts-hired/2722919002/

It was called the Multipurpose Cultural and Performing Arts Center on the ballot. The name doesn't exactly scream sports and should have included sports somehow, both I would venture to say that the voters assumed it was to include sports.

The latest ruling is now in favor of sporting events but Grossman is asking for it to go to the supreme court.

The cost of the arena is now estimated at $250 million and the size would likely be around 14,500 capacity, but all is yet to be determined.

The city has paid about 15 million to acquire properties in Durangito and in legal fees. 21 million of the 180 million was set aside for this so apparently they are still under budget. Of course the money lost so far is in the devaluation of the 180 million over time.
Click to expand...

Thanks, axingfools, for the detail. Yeah, the name could have been a little clearer; it was, however, marketed as an arena, and the name certainly doesn't exclude sports. There is no doubt that the voters knew what they were voting for. Still, this is a good example of why you should use clarity in everything, so that you don't get idiots like Grossman trying to find and exploit loopholes.
 
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minermaniac2023 said:
What are you talking about? What stadium is FC Juarez going to play in?
Click to expand...
Same thing I’m wondering. Is El Paso going to build a downtown stadium so FC Juarez can play a friendly there once a year? FC Juarez has difficulty selling out SUP. Any future FC Juarez game in El Paso would be at the SUP or the new Locomotive soccer specific stadium that’s yet to be funded.
 
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If FC Juarez can get approval to play in El Paso, they could play at the Sun Bowl. It would have to be a big opponent though. Juarez playing a regular season LigaMX game is not a done deal. LaLiga tried to play 1 game in Miami and was denied by the federation.
 
minermaniac2023 said:
If FC Juarez can get approval to play in El Paso, they could play at the Sun Bowl. It would have to be a big opponent though. Juarez playing a regular season LigaMX game is not a done deal. LaLiga tried to play 1 game in Miami and was denied by the federation.
Click to expand...
Imo the sun bowl is too big of a venue for local soccer clubs. FC Juarez probably wouldn’t be able to sell 50k tickets in their own city for ten pesos each so why in the world would they sell that many tickets in another country? I would like to see them sell out the SAC first to see if they can even draw a crowd of 15k
 
If the Chihuahuas have taught us anything its that the team is not the only draw to a venue. The venue itself should be a destination. The Sun Bowl is an outdated relic and there is really no way to renovate it into a modern venue. The SAC is not a destination. To draw attendance, a venue needs to have modern amenities that people want to experience. The success of the team is important but the food, music and fun of a modern sports venue can draw entertainment dollars of their own.
 
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JCorona said:
Imo the sun bowl is too big of a venue for local soccer clubs. FC Juarez probably wouldn’t be able to sell 50k tickets in their own city for ten pesos each so why in the world would they sell that many tickets in another country? I would like to see them sell out the SAC first to see if they can even draw a crowd of 15k
Click to expand...

The Sun Bowl would be too big for Juarez vs Atlas but if they had their America or Chivas game there, I think they could get 30k.
 
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minermaniac2023 said:
The Sun Bowl would be too big for Juarez vs Atlas but if they had their America or Chivas game there, I think they could get 30k.
Click to expand...
I’m sure that will go over well with their fan base. Take the biggest game of the year and put it in another country where they aren’t allowed.
 
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jdubb66 said:
If the Chihuahuas have taught us anything its that the team is not the only draw to a venue. The venue itself should be a destination. The Sun Bowl is an outdated relic and there is really no way to renovate it into a modern venue. The SAC is not a destination. To draw attendance, a venue needs to have modern amenities that people want to experience. The success of the team is important but the food, music and fun of a modern sports venue can draw entertainment dollars of their own.
Click to expand...
axingfools1 said:
https://www.elpasotimes.com/story/n...-size-unknown-until-experts-hired/2722919002/

It was called the Multipurpose Cultural and Performing Arts Center on the ballot. The name doesn't exactly scream sports and should have included sports somehow, but I would venture to say that the voters assumed it was to include sports.

The latest ruling is now in favor of sporting events, but Grossman is asking for it to go to the supreme court.

The cost of the arena is now estimated at $250 million and the size would likely be around 14,500 capacity, but all is yet to be determined.

The city has paid about 15 million to acquire properties in Durangito and to pay legal fees. 21 million of the 180 million was set aside for this so apparently they are still under budget. Of course the money lost so far is in the devaluation of the 180 million over time.
Click to expand...
UTEPDefense said:
"In February 2018, the city offered to move the MPC footprint within the Downtown area, but Bryan did not appear at the mediation. Bryan was also asked to purchase buildings within the footprint but declined the option."

https://cbs4local.com/news/local/ci...close-out-litigation-involving-downtown-arena

The city has twice offered Grossman and his Billionaire partner the opportunity to purchase the buildings in duranguito and both times they have declined. Grossman's billionaire partner has already spent between $1 and $2 million dollars in legal fee's(fee's which continue to rise), when instead he has twice had the option of purchasing these buildings for a total number between $15 and $16 million. I find it odd that they want to save the buildings so bad, yet refuse to take ownership of them, when that is the easiest way to save them? Obviously, these buildings are not worth the money and not worth saving, which is why they refuse the purchase them.
Click to expand...
UTEPMiners8106 said:
The city has been a group of bumbling sh*t-d*cks. Hands down. There was no need to be vague with the language in the proposal.
Click to expand...

"the time to buy is when there's blood in the streets."-Baron Rothschild; 18th century British nobleman and member of the Rothschild banking family

Now this refers to war time when one invading nation takes over another and the invaded turncoats come out of the wood work to save their hide and get something out of it, however this will get costly and someone is going to get one hell of deal when all said and done. This is getting smelly and ugly.
 
axingfools1 said:
https://www.elpasotimes.com/story/n...-size-unknown-until-experts-hired/2722919002/

It was called the Multipurpose Cultural and Performing Arts Center on the ballot. The name doesn't exactly scream sports and should have included sports somehow, but I would venture to say that the voters assumed it was to include sports.

The latest ruling is now in favor of sporting events, but Grossman is asking for it to go to the supreme court.

The cost of the arena is now estimated at $250 million and the size would likely be around 14,500 capacity, but all is yet to be determined.

The city has paid about 15 million to acquire properties in Durangito and to pay legal fees. 21 million of the 180 million was set aside for this so apparently they are still under budget. Of course the money lost so far is in the devaluation of the 180 million over time.
Click to expand...
What exactly is the downside to allowing a sporting event in a multipurpose arena? What harm would it do? Is it just so outrageous that it defies the communities sensibilities? Of course not.

The "no sports" argument is nonsensical. If a public asset is build it should be, and in some respects must be, used to the fullest extent possible. To think otherwise is contrary to the public good.

I may understand, but not agree with, the desire to move the arena to preserve what has been represented as a historical neighborhood (read: old, rundown), but to argue the community can't enjoy sporting events in a public arena because the ballot didn't specifically say so is beyond ridiculous.
 
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Miner Donkey said:
What exactly is the downside to allowing a sporting event in a multipurpose arena? What harm would it do? Is it just so outrageous that it defies the communities sensibilities? Of course not.

The "no sports" argument is nonsensical. If a public asset is build it should be, and in some respects must be, used to the fullest extent possible. To think otherwise is contrary to the public good.

I may understand, but not agree with, the desire to move the arena to preserve what has been represented as a historical neighborhood (read: old, rundown), but to argue the community can't enjoy sporting events in a public arena because the ballot didn't specifically say so is beyond ridiculous.
Click to expand...
In what way can the word "multipurpose" be construed to exclude any purpose related to sports?
 
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The injunction preventing demolition has been lifted tonight. Not sure if the city will try anything tonight but of course Grossman and his supporters will be there to try and block any possible attempt to raze those bulidings down.
 
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