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Miner Football Scrimmage

MinerMambo

Starter
Sep 19, 2001
369
691
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Observations:

* Metz is a stud.
* Torrez will be backup over Greenlee
* Tailback is weakest position on the offense.
* Dove is a load at fullback.
* The kid from Cruces still has a ways to go.
* Riddix and Batson look good.
* TE, Lucero, has the size but hands need work.
* O-Line is solid.
* Freshman Sullivan, No. 90, will be a stud.
* LBs and CBs are solid.

* Kugler is going to have to throw a lot more than je wants because the tailback position is weak. Metz is accurate and throws a nice ball.
 
Metz is a stud.....you lost me there.

While he IS the best QB on the roster, let's be real, ok?
And while I understand the love for local guys, I remain cautious on having 2 locals being #1 AND #2 on the depth chart at QB. It's not like EITHER led their HS teams deep into the playoffs.

I was waiting to hear the praise for Fields.....
 
The only question I want to hear the answer to is how was the defensive line?? Without that nothing else matters as Metallica would say
 
The only question I want to hear the answer to is how was the defensive line?? Without that nothing else matters as Metallica would say

It's very early but I'm very optismic about the defense, especially the d-line. Definatley the most talented and deepest d-line I can remember.

I will disagree with an earlier poster about mckee the freshman fullback. I thought he was pretty polished looked good may play as a true freshman.

I think running back will be a non issue. In this offense tail back is a plug and play position. We won't lack for production in the backfield. The NFL scouts always rave about Item's complex blocking schemes. Dove, Dawn, Awatt, Fields and Powell are more than capable backs.
 
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AJ left, Wadley got hurt, Dupree didn't qualify, Powell is out of shape and Fields doesn't stand out. Shit.
 
JC transfer Busey is a standout at WR. Also, where is Sinegal? He is still on the roster but haven't heard any reports on him. TE is in good hands with Lucero and Wells. Dove could be the big RB we need.
 
El Paso Times reported Sinegal is out for year, couldn't pass his classes, not eligible.
 
I don't get it? What difference does it make where they are from? Who cares what they did in high school? If they can play, they can play!
Metz is a stud.....you lost me there.

While he IS the best QB on the roster, let's be real, ok?
And while I understand the love for local guys, I remain cautious on having 2 locals being #1 AND #2 on the depth chart at QB. It's not like EITHER led their HS teams deep into the playoffs.

I was waiting to hear the praise for Fields.....
 
That will hurt. That leaves Kavika as the go to guy for whatever Kugler has for a passing game. Sinegal had major potential. Not all conference potential, but really blossomed last year. This does hurt the team.
The go to guy for deep passes will be JC xfer Busey, most likely. He has looked very good so far.
 
I don't get it? What difference does it make where they are from? Who cares what they did in high school? If they can play, they can play!
I love El Paso. raised here since my dad retired decades ago. BUT....the fact is this....there isn't that much D1 talent here. Yes, there are some good kids. Yes, some deserve to play D1. The simple fact is not THAT many should be given scholarships. If there was that much talent in El Paso, these kids would be recruited by bigger schools....or any other school.
Others might know the answers because I sure don't, but who recruited Metz? Fields? Sinegal? Torrez? Redix? Richie Rodriguez? Alvin? etc....
I get it....you like the fact we keep local kids, but the fact remains if you want to build a WINNING program, you have to go out of EP to get the kids. I'm sorry, but giving scholarships to local kids who weren't offered anything "better" only pays for their education but never produces wins....or fan support either.

I want UTEP to win. I am from El Paso, and we are Miners!
 
In regards to the recruiting El Paso question, I think that Kugler is trying something different and his idea has some merit. El Paso has always been a hard place to recruit to for many reasons(isolated location, outside perceptions about a border town, etc.) and this inability to consistenly bring top recruits out here has directly related to why we have been a historically bad football program.
But what Kugler is doing is banking on the fact that a 2 star El Paso kid with 5 or 6 years of training and development, can compete with the 3 star players with only 2 or 3 years of college experience. Once El Paso kids sign with UTEP under Kugler, they generally Gray Shirt and stay within the program for the duration. They don't get home sick and leave, and they spend 5 or 6 years developing.
Take Ryan Metz for example, this is now his 5th year since High School and he is barely a Junior. He will essentially be a 6th year Senior next year. What Kugler is doing with El Paso recruiting is kinda using the old BYU model. BYU used to have older players every year because they had players who generally took 2 year missions, Kugler is almost doing the same thing with the best local El Paso kids who he thinks has the most growth potential.
Another example; look at Wells last year, he led the state of Texas in sacks but didn't get a lot of recruiting interest. He could have qualified to play this season, but instead, Kugler signed him and Gray Shirted him. Next year he will be eligible to red shirt and he could potentially be in his 3rd year of development and training before he even see's the field as a Freshman in two years. The same thing has happened with Javaugn Thomas, Chris Barnwell, Eddie Sinegal, Cutter Leftwich, Richie Rodriguez, Mark Torres, De Haro, etc., etc., etc.
This is a long-term approach and naturally it will take some time to see if it works but I think the theory makes a lot of sense.
It has been roughly 70 years since a UTEP Coach has had a winning season here AND every player on his roster was a player that he recruited(Price only won with mostly Nord's players, Nord only won with Bailey's players, Stull only won with mostly Yung's players, etc.) So I give Kugler credit for trying something different and trying something at a level that previous coaches haven't tried. If it fails then at least we know that something new was tried and it didn't work here. We can check it off the list of things to try and we can thank Kugler for not just doing the same things that have never worked here. I also appreciate that Kugler has stayed dedicated to seeing this long-term plan out and not abandoning ship mid-way through when pressure built. We just have to keep trying these different ideas until we can finally find a formula that can consistently win here.
 
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I'm not going to disagree with the lack of D-1 ready talent in El Paso but at the same time everybody and their mother is recruiting east Texas. Kugler and company probably feel that the scraps they are fighting for in other locations is comparable to El Paso talent.
 
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For all intensive purposes, when we recruit in Texas we are an out of state school. We are farther away from Texas recruits than several out of state schools. El Paso is least known about metro market in Texas. 95% of the population in texas has never been to El Paso. As Defense mentioned, isolation, border city, negative perceptions are all used against us. We are the only one of the 12 fbs schools who does not have the recruiting benefit of being in Texas. I think in a perfect scenario 60% of our recruits come from Texas 30% from California 10% from other states. At UTEP we are always going to have to focus on recruiting nationally more than the other Texas Schools. When in comes to recruiting we have no home state.
 
Kuglar is forced to build talent here. He doesn't have the luxury of going out to get D-1 ready players. Ours have to red-shirt, grey-shirt and every other type of shirt before they're ready.

I personally love what Kuglar has done to the program except for the wins and losses part. I'm proud of the players and teams we've put out under him. I still believe that doing the right things the right way will pay off in the long run. I just wish it would hurry up and get here.
 
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In regards to the recruiting El Paso question, I think that Kugler is trying something different and his idea has some merit. El Paso has always been a hard place to recruit to for many reasons(isolated location, outside perceptions about a border town, etc.) and this inability to consistenly bring top recruits out here has directly related to why we have been a historically bad football program.
But what Kugler is doing is banking on the fact that a 2 star El Paso kid with 5 or 6 years of training and development, can compete with the 3 star players with only 2 or 3 years of college experience. Once El Paso kids sign with UTEP under Kugler, they generally Gray Shirt and stay within the program for the duration. They don't get home sick and leave, and they spend 5 or 6 years developing.
Take Ryan Metz for example, this is now his 5th year since High School and he is barely a Junior. He will essentially be a 6th year Senior next year. What Kugler is doing with El Paso recruiting is kinda using the old BYU model. BYU used to have older players every year because they had players who generally took 2 year missions, Kugler is almost doing the same thing with the best local El Paso kids who he thinks has the most growth potential.
Another example; look at Wells last year, he led the state of Texas in sacks but didn't get a lot of recruiting interest. He could have qualified to play this season, but instead, Kugler signed him and Gray Shirted him. Next year he will be eligible to red shirt and he could potentially be in his 3rd year of development and training before he even see's the field as a Freshman in two years. The same thing has happened with Javaugn Thomas, Chris Barnwell, Eddie Sinegal, Cutter Leftwich, Richie Rodriguez, Mark Torres, De Haro, etc., etc., etc.
This is a long-term approach and naturally it will take some time to see if it works but I think the theory makes a lot of sense.
It has been roughly 70 years since a UTEP Coach has had a winning season here AND every player on his roster was a player that he recruited(Price only won with mostly Nord's players, Nord only won with Bailey's players, Stull only won with mostly Yung's players, etc.) So I give Kugler credit for trying something different and trying something at a level that previous coaches haven't tried. If it fails then at least we know that something new was tried and it didn't work here. We can check it off the list of things to try and we can thank Kugler for not just doing the same things that have never worked here. I also appreciate that Kugler has stayed dedicated to seeing this long-term plan out and not abandoning ship mid-way through when pressure built. We just have to keep trying these different ideas until we can finally find a formula that can consistently win here.

Nice post. The thing that is holding the program back in terms of wins and losses is not Kugler's recruiting of El Paso high school kids, it's his terribly conservative offense. When Kugler has opened the playbook, the team has won games they should have lost (nmsu, utsa). Kugler's offense was successful the year he went bowling, but defensive coordinators are now stacking the box stifling his running game.
 
I would argue that the reason kuglar CANT open the playbook is that he doesn't have enough playmakers. In other words, the El Paso kids just don't have it.
I understand and get everything you say, defense. The problem is it won't work building on mainly El Paso kids. I "think" it's the lazy coach way of recruiting. I'm sorry, but EVERY coach UTEP has had has brought in skill players from different parts of the country/state. Don't just focus on Texas, get out there. I KNOW there are exceptional athletes in many different places. Some class A schools still have kids that can develop into stars. Bailey found talent and brought it here. So did Nord, Price, Lee, etc....It CAN be done.
Hoping you can get a zero star kid from El Paso, keep him here 6 years, and eventually you will build a winner, is too much of a reach. Go get some 2/3 star talented kids and do the same. I'm sure some kids from midland, odessa, pecos, ft hancock, etc would appreciate a chance as well.

I just think he has put most of his eggs in the El Paso basket and it will continue to hurt us with fewer wins. Steal the great local kids, but go chase the hidden gems elsewhere.

We need WINS....Ws....beat teams on the field. If we don't, we can't keep funding the athletic program at all.
 
For all intensive purposes, when we recruit in Texas we are an out of state school. We are farther away from Texas recruits than several out of state schools. El Paso is least known about metro market in Texas. 95% of the population in texas has never been to El Paso. As Defense mentioned, isolation, border city, negative perceptions are all used against us. We are the only one of the 12 fbs schools who does not have the recruiting benefit of being in Texas. I think in a perfect scenario 60% of our recruits come from Texas 30% from California 10% from other states. At UTEP we are always going to have to focus on recruiting nationally more than the other Texas Schools. When in comes to recruiting we have no home state.
95% may be a tad high, but yes we are more closely linked to NM, AZ and CA than the rest of Texas in most aspects.
 
I'm not going to disagree with the lack of D-1 ready talent in El Paso but at the same time everybody and their mother is recruiting east Texas. Kugler and company probably feel that the scraps they are fighting for in other locations is comparable to El Paso talent.

It is not Kugler's job to recruit El Paso. His job is to put a competitive FBS squad on the field and if they come from Alaska, so be it. Competing for a conference crown every now and then would be a nice cherry on top but for UTEP, that's elusive. Kugler is producing All Conference and All American's and UTEP is still at the bottom of CUSA west.
 
I did not say his job was to recruit EP. I'm saying UTEP is not recruiting elite talent from other locations nationally. We have never been able to. So maybe the thought process is that the players from other cities they bring in is comparable to the top kids from El Paso.
 
So you're thinking that MAYBE getting kids from El Paso that no other D1 school has tried to get just MIGHT be better than getting a 1 or 2 star kid from somewhere else that has at least a couple offers?

Ok that might work for a couple kids, but when you focus mainly on that approach, I think you set yourself up for a big fall....
 
I'm sorry but was UTEP getting 4 and 5 star recruits/beating out major schools before they changed their recruiting model? You are more than welcome to tell me about how great every recruiting class was before they recruited locally. I know Price's first two classes were very good and other than that he brought in a ton of bums by the end. Are we doing any worse than Price was his last couple of years, or Gary Nord, Charlie Bailey and any other coach not named Stull?

We have always had to find diamonds in the rough. If we're choosing between taking fliers on developing local talent that no one wants or some "Not Ranked" kid from somewhere else who is mulling scholarship offers from UTEP and a school and some other bum school on our level then you can argue that we are splitting hairs here.

I'm not defending the practice but he is trying a different approach at upgrading the talent and he is getting similar results.
 
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IMO El Paso recruits are vastly underrated. Showers who played HS ball in the Killeen area said that if Jones had played over there he would have easily been a 4star recruit.

There are a few El Paso kids that end up on P5 teams. The problem is Kugler isn't landing them. If he can produce wins, bowl appearances, and conference championships then those kids might choose UTEP in the future.

Most of those kids that are FBS level aren't your typical homegrown El Pasoens. They are army transplants. They have the talent to play for any G5 team and some of the mid to lower P5 teams. With the inferior football reputation that the Sun City carries they aren't as sought out.

Overall the W/L record has been about the same as Price who brought in 2 and 3 star players from all over the country.

I sincerely wish Kugler success in this project. If it works we will start seeing a lot more FBS schools scouting the El Paso high school scene.
 
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I'm confused. So because Showers said ONE local kid could easily be a 4 star recruit, El Paso as a whole is under rated? I'm not understanding your logic Corona. You can't use one gifted as shit player to categorize a whole damn city. Sure, a select few have gone on to big schools, but seriously, how many have amounted to much? (overall)

I would argue that Price still brought in some talent, but his coaching and assistants, sucked.

I am not trying to be chihuahua or anything, I just find it impossible to believe you can fill ANY D1 roster with 1/3 El Pasoans and win.....EVER.

We won't win more than 4 games this year. The schedule is too difficult, and we are full of locals. No worries, Kugler won't go anywhere after this year either even if he goes winless. So you can defend his approach again next year....
 
Price had some good wins, though, signature wins, even beating the top-25 Houston team. As has been stated many times on this board, Kugler has never beaten an FBS team with a record over .500.
I agree Price did have a couple of nice wins but he also had more than three decades of head coaching experience compared to Kugler who has been on the job less than five years.
 
Price brought in good skill players and he played a more fan friendly brand of offensive football. Yes Kugler is rounding out the roster with El Pasoans but if we are in a situation where we need to rely on the bottom half of the roster for the win then we are beyond f*cked, regardless of where they come from.
 
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I'm confused. So because Showers said ONE local kid could easily be a 4 star recruit, El Paso as a whole is under rated? I'm not understanding your logic Corona. You can't use one gifted as shit player to categorize a whole damn city. Sure, a select few have gone on to big schools, but seriously, how many have amounted to much? (overall)

I would argue that Price still brought in some talent, but his coaching and assistants, sucked.

I am not trying to be chihuahua or anything, I just find it impossible to believe you can fill ANY D1 roster with 1/3 El Pasoans and win.....EVER.

We won't win more than 4 games this year. The schedule is too difficult, and we are full of locals. No worries, Kugler won't go anywhere after this year either even if he goes winless. So you can defend his approach again next year....

I'm not going to pretend to be some expert on El Paso HS recruiting. There could be a lot of players that slipped though the cracks because no college team gave them the opportunity. One that comes to mind is John Skelton. He mentioned years later he wanted to play for UTEP but Price never gave him a look. During his four years as a starter in college he set a ton of records for Fordham. During that same stretch Price and UTEP were unable to reach .500. We will never know if he would have been the difference between 4-8 and some more bowl invitations. Obviously he was good since he was drafted into the NFL and played a few years. I don't think Vittatoe ever made an NFL roster.

Unfortunately or lucky for us we will soon find out if Kugler's strategy of heavily recruiting El Paso will work. As you mentioned he is not going anywhere since he has the AD and booster support. As someone who loves El Paso I want his plan to succeed. It could turn out to be a complete game changer. Not too many coaches out there would risk their job and head coaching career for the development of El Paso high school kids.

I was fully on board the fire Kugler train but once Kappy notified us he is here until 2020 I jumped into let's support him and hope for the best train. I'll most likely go through the same phase again next year. After the season ends in a disappointment I'll voice my displeasure and want him gone. As we approach the end of summer and start of football season I'll jump back on the "defend his approach" stance.
 
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Kug is a lazy recruiter plain and simple. I think he has to many EP kids but that's not the problem. He came in and immediately stopped having satellite camps around Texas. UTEP honestly had some big crowds for their camps in North Texas. How are you going to get the ET, NT or Houston kid to you know and look at UTEP if you never introduce them to EP and what it has to offer. You have to take UTEP and what you have to offer to them. He is as I said just plain and simple a lazy ass recruiter.
 
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A couple of random thoughts:

- Price played against a conference schedule that is tougher than what Kugler has played against.

- Kugler has only had 5 home games in 3 out of his 5 seasons at UTEP. That was the state of the program that Kugler inherited and asking a Coach to play more road games than home games in 3 out of 5 years is tough.

- Price had better skill players on offense, but IMO Kugler's roster is more balanced and is becoming deeper. I will give an example of why I feel this way; for about 3 seasons under Price, Germard Reed was our best D-Lineman. He was a good player. Except that if Reed was playing on the D-Line that Kugler has built today, I feel that he would be comparable to Sky Logan who is not even a starter. Reed and Logan are both listed at exactly the same size, they were both exactly 6'1" 280. I also feel that they are very similar talent wise. Remember Logan had an offer from Boise State. Both are pretty good players, except that Reed was a 3 year starter and he was the best defensive lineman on his team, while Logan is only a top 4 or 5 defensive lineman on his team and is not even a starter. Reed would also be the smallest d-lineman that we have, if he started for Kugler. IMO, it shows how Kugler has built the more depth on the d-line. To show that a lack of defensive depth was a trend, one season under Price, our best defensive lineman was a 5'10" former walk-on from Chapin, now Kugler is rolling 300 pounders out there who are also half a foot taller. In one season under Price, his best starting LB was a converted QB still learning the position. He was forced to switch a QB to LB out of necessity because we didn't have anybody else. Now Kugler has multi-year starting LB's with depth building behind them. On the flip side of this, Kugler has not recruited talent at WR like Jeff Moturi, Kris Adams, Jason Boyd, etc., which Price did. So in summary, I feel that we are becoming better off overall, but not as explosive on offense(which I think that everybody already knows).
 
So in summary, I feel that we are becoming better off overall, but not as explosive on offense(which I think that everybody already knows).

Wins have been decreasing every year since 2014, so we are getting worse. Without Aaron I don't think we will win more games than last year.
 
Torrez belongs at the FBS level, and will get a chance to develop first-hand experience this season, compared to running the scout team last season.....From Miner Rush.......I actually find your post offensive. If you can play, you can play I don't care if your from El Paso. I do believe that the players recruited by Kugler have potential to help the team, whether it's now or the future. Ridiculous assessment on your part. I hope these players prove you wrong, just like the Jones brothers have done.

I love El Paso. raised here since my dad retired decades ago. BUT....the fact is this....there isn't that much D1 talent here. Yes, there are some good kids. Yes, some deserve to play D1. The simple fact is not THAT many should be given scholarships. If there was that much talent in El Paso, these kids would be recruited by bigger schools....or any other school.
Others might know the answers because I sure don't, but who recruited Metz? Fields? Sinegal? Torrez? Redix? Richie Rodriguez? Alvin? etc....
I get it....you like the fact we keep local kids, but the fact remains if you want to build a WINNING program, you have to go out of EP to get the kids. I'm sorry, but giving scholarships to local kids who weren't offered anything "better" only pays for their education but never produces wins....or fan support either.

I want UTEP to win. I am from El Paso, and we are Miners!
 
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We are arguing about about the makeup of the bottom of the roster. Metz, Long, Moss/Kavika/Reddix, Elmendorf, Jones, Fields, Sinegal, Luna are all local kids that contribute to the program. The majority of starters are out of town kids. Let's not get bent out of shape here. Aside from the lack of playmakers at WR I don't have a problem with the local talent. Most of those guys that you guys are complaining about will probably not see the field, and will not be relied on. So what if out 10th linebacker is from El Paso, their job is just to get pounded on in practice.
 
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Really? Because the stats seem to support it. Reed had more total tackles than any other d-lineman over Price's final two years here. Reed also ranked in the top 2 for the entire team in Tackles For Losses during both of Mike Price's final two seasons here. In fact, Reed was only 1/2 TFL away from tying Horace Miller(who was essentially a LB) for the TFL team lead in both of those years. Reed then had more combined total tackles than Horace Miller had over those final two years, even though Miller started more games during that 2 year period. Oh and Reed accomplished all of this despite playing on the interior of the d-line, not as an outside blitzer. There is a very strong argument that he was the best defensive lineman that we had during that time period and these above stats do not even include the 3rd year(2011), which was Reed's Freshman year, when he both led the entire team in QB Pressures and led all defensive linemen in Tackles For Loss......and again, he did all this from an interior d-line position.
 
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Really? Because the stats seem to support it. Reed had more total tackles than any other d-lineman over Price's final two years here. Reed also ranked in the top 2 for the entire team in Tackles For Losses during both of Mike Price's final two seasons here. In fact, Reed was only 1/2 TFL away from tying Horace Miller(who was essentially a LB) for the TFL team lead in both of those years. Reed then had more combined total tackles than Horace Miller had over those final two years, even though Miller started more games during that 2 year period. Oh and Reed accomplished all of this despite playing on the interior of the d-line, not as an outside blitzer. There is a very strong argument that he was the best defensive lineman that we had during that time period and these above stats do not even include the 3rd year(2011), which was Reed's Freshman year, when he both led the entire team in QB Pressures and led all defensive linemen in Tackles For Loss......and again, he did all this from an interior d-line position.

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