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Next season's roster ....

Have to agree with DaMinerMan, the situation is different now than what it was back in the 80s and 90s. and has been evolving towards this for the last 20 years. Not saying this is an ideal way to run a college program, but given todays environment a realistic and required approach. Another factor in this is many of these kids only want a pro pathway, not a college education or even the opportunity to get one. Many of these kids are not ready for a college education, and when classwork becomes an additional requirement to the path to pro ball they are not up to the task, they seek other routes like JC or small college or even a coach or program which can bend the rules a little. Add to this promises to play or start, playing time, tv exposure and even shoes and uniforms the team is equipped with become issues. Then there are the "agents" who get in kids ear, tell him how prime time he is and that school A needs a player just like him now and that he would be a sure starter there. With all this I am surprised 4 year players still exist. 18 years olds have never be accused of good decision making and when you add into the mix poverty, poor academics, less than effective parenting or family support and people swirling around this situation motivated only by money you get a bad deal all around. Bad for the kids, the teams, the sport.
 
Voice of the Mosquito said:
Have to agree with DaMinerMan, the situation is different now than what it was back in the 80s and 90s. and has been evolving towards this for the last 20 years. Not saying this is an ideal way to run a college program, but given todays environment a realistic and required approach. Another factor in this is many of these kids only want a pro pathway, not a college education or even the opportunity to get one. Many of these kids are not ready for a college education, and when classwork becomes an additional requirement to the path to pro ball they are not up to the task, they seek other routes like JC or small college or even a coach or program which can bend the rules a little. Add to this promises to play or start, playing time, tv exposure and even shoes and uniforms the team is equipped with become issues. Then there are the "agents" who get in kids ear, tell him how prime time he is and that school A needs a player just like him now and that he would be a sure starter there. With all this I am surprised 4 year players still exist. 18 years olds have never be accused of good decision making and when you add into the mix poverty, poor academics, less than effective parenting or family support and people swirling around this situation motivated only by money you get a bad deal all around. Bad for the kids, the teams, the sport.
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I agree with you 100% Voice; it is a flawed and hypocritical system driven by one thing: Dollars. There is no loyalty on the part of the players to the university, or vice versa. The thing with Floyd is that most of us knew what to expect with how his program was to be run. He hasn't changed from his previous tenures. The big difference is that he hasn't gotten it done at UTEP. Getting it done, for me, is making it to the NCAA tournament. We really haven't come close, since we choked away the game at home to Memphis. So, to run a program as such, and still not win is pretty disheartening.
 
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Voice of the Mosquito said:
Have to agree with DaMinerMan, the situation is different now than what it was back in the 80s and 90s. and has been evolving towards this for the last 20 years. Not saying this is an ideal way to run a college program, but given todays environment a realistic and required approach. Another factor in this is many of these kids only want a pro pathway, not a college education or even the opportunity to get one. Many of these kids are not ready for a college education, and when classwork becomes an additional requirement to the path to pro ball they are not up to the task, they seek other routes like JC or small college or even a coach or program which can bend the rules a little. Add to this promises to play or start, playing time, tv exposure and even shoes and uniforms the team is equipped with become issues. Then there are the "agents" who get in kids ear, tell him how prime time he is and that school A needs a player just like him now and that he would be a sure starter there. With all this I am surprised 4 year players still exist. 18 years olds have never be accused of good decision making and when you add into the mix poverty, poor academics, less than effective parenting or family support and people swirling around this situation motivated only by money you get a bad deal all around. Bad for the kids, the teams, the sport.
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All of that is true in some cases across D1, but it's not like UTEP is getting one and done NBA prospects.

Last year's freshmen are leaving, mostly it seems to me, because of a lack of playing time and because they're being replaced with "the cavalry" of new recruits who are perceived by Floyd to be upgrades.
 
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FanatiCoog said:
BOOM! Thank you for pointing that out and using conceptual framework that really highlights the point I was trying to make.
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I get it and I understand what you are trying to say. My point is that some freshman are ready to play, while most are not. It then comes down to the attitude of the player. Some freshman might feel they are ready but they aren't regardless of the hype they had coming out of high school. When the reality of college ball hits and they don't play they get discouraged and leave the program. What do you want the coach to do? Play them even if they are not ready just to stroke their ego so they don't leave, or do you play the one's who have the basketball IQ and physical skills it takes to play as a freshman, which may only be one player if your lucky. Obviously you will play the one's who will help the team right now. Practice is where playing time is determined period. Not getting it done in practice, no chance of playing in a game. Those who work through it and stay are the player's we want. Unfortunately kids think they know more than the coaches and leave for greener pastures and the hope of more playing time. Instead of losing a year of eligibility all they had to do was just stay, work hard and earn their playing time.
 
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DaMinerMan said:
I get it and I understand what you are trying to say. My point is that some freshman are ready to play, while most are not. It then comes down to the attitude of the player. Some freshman might feel they are ready but they aren't regardless of the hype they had coming out of high school. When the reality of college ball hits and they don't play they get discouraged and leave the program. What do you want the coach to do? Play them even if they are not ready just to stroke their ego so they don't leave, or do you play the one's who have the basketball IQ and physical skills it takes to play as a freshman, which may only be one player if your lucky. Obviously you will play the one's who will help the team right now. Practice is where playing time is determined period. Not getting it done in practice, no chance of playing in a game. Those who work through it and stay are the player's we want. Unfortunately kids think they know more than the coaches and leave for greener pastures and the hope of more playing time. Instead of losing a year of eligibility all they had to do was just stay, work hard and earn their playing time.
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I agree with the principle of what you're saying. I really do. I get it. But keep in mind that by early November, Floyd had at least 6, but I think 7, recruits already verbally committed for the next year. The season had just begun. I find it hard to believe every one of those kids, even the majority of them, had already decided they were gonna bolt for "greener pastures" at that point. Therefore, that would indicate that CTF already had it in his mind to replace them, which he has a reputation for doing. I don't think these are all cases of "I'm not getting the pt I deserve so I'm outta here". We had their replacements in line weeks into the season. IF by chance it WAS the players who were making the choice to transfer at that early stage of the season, one has gotta wonder wtf is going on to where that is the case so consistently. Things just havent added up no matter which way I've looked at it. This isn't an isolated case. Floyd is usually restocking half the squad, year in and year out. No way Floyd could've been sure these guys wouldn't turn out to be good with adequate player development. They had only been under his tutelage for a month.

Out of curiosity, how many of the 7 or 8 recruits, do you think will still be with us at this time next year?
 
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Against Gonzaga, UNC started Joel Berry (junior), Pinson (junior), Justin Jackson (junior), Hicks (senior), and Kennedy Meeks (senior). It brought a senior guard (Nate Britt) off the bench, and also talented younger players, like McDonald’s All-American Tony Bradley (freshman).

When North Carolina won its last title prior to 2017 in 2009, it was almost the exact same mix: junior, junior, senior, junior, senior in the starting lineup with a solid senior guard off the bench, and a five-star freshman.

In 2005, North Carolina started junior, junior, senior, senior, junior with five-star, and-and-done Marvin Williams coming off the bench with a junior big and a senior guard. That team won a national title as well.
 
FanatiCoog said:
I agree with the principle of what you're saying. I really do. I get it. But keep in mind that by early November, Floyd had at least 6, but I think 7, recruits already verbally committed for the next year. The season had just begun. I find it hard to believe every one of those kids, even the majority of them, had already decided they were gonna bolt for "greener pastures" at that point. Therefore, that would indicate that CTF already had it in his mind to replace them, which he has a reputation for doing. I don't think these are all cases of "I'm not getting the pt I deserve so I'm outta here". We had their replacements in line weeks into the season. IF by chance it WAS the players who were making the choice to transfer at that early stage of the season, one has gotta wonder wtf is going on to where that is the case so consistently. Things just havent added up no matter which way I've looked at it. This isn't an isolated case. Floyd is usually restocking half the squad, year in and year out. No way Floyd could've been sure these guys wouldn't turn out to be good with adequate player development. They had only been under his tutelage for a month.

Out of curiosity, how many of the 7 or 8 recruits, do you think will still be with us at this time next year?
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You hit the nail smack dab on the head with your observations about the November signings. It just gets to be mind boggling how you can have a conviction to a solid program plan for success if you continue to change the ingredients (players) every year. There have been many cases where players developed into solid performers after an unimpressive freshman year. To me this is just a sad failure of judging talent to begin with while they were in high school. Not sure what was expected from this latest group where they collectively had no PT. What did they see when they recruited them that disappeared after they landed on campus?
Bewitched, bothered and bewildered!
 
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miner1liner said:
You hit the nail smack dab on the head with your observations about the November signings. It just gets to be mind boggling how you can have a conviction to a solid program plan for success if you continue to change the ingredients (players) every year. There have been many cases where players developed into solid performers after an unimpressive freshman year. To me this is just a sad failure of judging talent to begin with while they were in high school. Not sure what was expected from this latest group where they collectively had no PT. What did they see when they recruited them that disappeared after they landed on campus?
Bewitched, bothered and bewildered!
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So very true. Absolutely mind boggling.
 
FanatiCoog said:
Are you for real? I'm a "knowledgeable Miner fan" and I might've been able to guess who would leave but that's all it would've been.

And you're missing the point. Of course they didn't contribute, as very few freshmen do. The problem is, we keep bringing more and more young guns in, and most leave before they contribute a thing. What are we missing? Uhh...maybe player development. What's going to be different at this time next year, Nostradamus?

Give me a couple/few Juniors and Seniors who work hard and know the system, over some flash in the pan freshman who has only played against HS level competition. Most mid majors have to build a program on upper class men. How do you do that? You ****ing retain players.
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Let me clarify. My response was more to Shyyminer who said this will give Floyd another excuse for next year. My simple point is, No it won't because we all knew these particular players weren't returning. The writing was on the wall bro, I don't need to be NostraDumbass to see that. It's called paying attention a little bit that's all. I'm not predicting a glorious year next year, though I hope that every year, im saying these last transfers everyone and their mother knew was coming, so why act surprised like this changes next year's team, when it doesn't!
 
nattybry said:
Let me clarify. My response was more to Shyyminer who said this will give Floyd another excuse for next year. My simple point is, No it won't because we all knew these particular players weren't returning. The writing was on the wall bro, I don't need to be NostraDumbass to see that. It's called paying attention a little bit that's all. I'm not predicting a glorious year next year, though I hope that every year, im saying these last transfers everyone and their mother knew was coming, so why act surprised like this changes next year's team, when it doesn't!
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You are right, next year will be the same bullshit, and since you see things before they happen... Who is leaving for next year? Clearly, its going to be the higher recruited players, who get no playing time nor development. Yet, Flaggert and Touchet, got all this playing time. Of course they were going to improve, slightly. Imagine if Barnes, had all that playing time? Bottom line, sugar coat anyway you want, but Floyd isn't going to get it done, probably ever.
 
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Maybe flaggert and touchet earned their minutes in practice. But touchet over the last 5 or 6 games earned more playing time as the top scorer off the bench. Plus his defensive skills have improved. He isnt the quickest guy but he puts himself in spots where he can recover if/when he gets beat.
 
You have to wonder why urbanus was put in before the other guys. Could be floyds way of pushing a scholarship player out. Or could be that the walkon deserved it more.
 
OK... I know all of you have been waiting for me to post the projected lineups for next year so here it is.
C. Willms. Jones, St. Pierre (unless redshirted)
PF Thomas Smith
SF. Williams. Flaggert
SG Harris. Osborne, Wade
PG Touchet. Gilyard, Barrett, Magee
Brewer, I guess is not official yet but if he shows it'll change things a lot.
I expect Gilyard to be a starter by January and Osborne might have as much PT as
Williams if they go three guards.
Sorry it took so long to get this together for you.
 
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miner1liner said:
OK... I know all of you have been waiting for me to post the projected lineups for next year so here it is.
C. Willms. Jones, St. Pierre (unless redshirted)
PF Thomas Smith
SF. Williams. Flaggert
SG Harris. Osborne, Wade
PG Touchet. Gilyard, Barrett, Magee
Brewer, I guess is not official yet but if he shows it'll change things a lot.
I expect Gilyard to be a starter by January and Osborne might have as much PT as
Williams if they go three guards.
Sorry it took so long to get this together for you.
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Looks very reasonable to me. I'm hoping St. Pierre can play the 4 some, too. Love the way PT has come along, but he is far from a "power" power forward. He's much more finesse. Would be nice to actually have a banger on the floor at times. Maybe Smith can bring the hammer.
 
FanatiCoog said:
Looks very reasonable to me. I'm hoping St. Pierre can play the 4 some, too. Love the way PT has come along, but he is far from a "power" power forward. He's much more finesse. Would be nice to actually have a banger on the floor at times. Maybe Smith can bring the hammer.
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You are correct about needing a big banger and per a previous discussion it's unclear how big Smith really is.... 180 or 230 ? Big difference. Anyone know?
 
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I do believe that qualifies him to be the "Big Banger" we want. Don't remember the last time we had a 6-8, 230 . Are there any videos?
 
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miner1liner said:
I do believe that qualifies him to be the "Big Banger" we want. Don't remember the last time we had a 6-8, 230 . Are there any videos?
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I didn't find much in terms of video highlights for Smith, but I did see he recently participated in his state All star game, and was named the MVP. I have seen him projected as a stretch 4; but he should also have enough bulk to defend the stronger PF types. Like most freshman, I would expect he will need some time to adjust to D1, but the hope is that he will be able to provide some depth behind Paul Thomas next year.

http://www.jucoweekly.com/news/story.aspx?ID=12379
 
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shyminer81 said:
You are right, next year will be the same bullshit, and since you see things before they happen... Who is leaving for next year? Clearly, its going to be the higher recruited players, who get no playing time nor development. Yet, Flaggert and Touchet, got all this playing time. Of course they were going to improve, slightly. Imagine if Barnes, had all that playing time? Bottom line, sugar coat anyway you want, but Floyd isn't going to get it done, probably ever.
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Lol No one's sugar coating and people know I'm not a Floyd supporter. Simply said Americans and Barnes leaving was expected and this changes nothing and Floyd can't use this as an excuse next year.
 
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Lil_Train said:
I didn't find much in terms of video highlights for Smith, but I did see he recently participated in his state All star game, and was named the MVP. I have seen him projected as a stretch 4; but he should also have enough bulk to defend the stronger PF types. Like most freshman, I would expect he will need some time to adjust to D1, but the hope is that he will be able to provide some depth behind Paul Thomas next year.

http://www.jucoweekly.com/news/story.aspx?ID=12379
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Thanks Lil. Seems like every recruit has at least one video highlight. Odd that there's nothing for him.
 
Lil_Train said:
I didn't find much in terms of video highlights for Smith, but I did see he recently participated in his state All star game, and was named the MVP. I have seen him projected as a stretch 4; but he should also have enough bulk to defend the stronger PF types. Like most freshman, I would expect he will need some time to adjust to D1, but the hope is that he will be able to provide some depth behind Paul Thomas next year.

http://www.jucoweekly.com/news/story.aspx?ID=12379
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I'll take a state all star game MVP any day.

One quote that keeps looping around in my mind is that, last November, Floyd specifically mentioned that if Smith was on the roster "right now", he'd make an impact on the floor. Smith wasn't even into his senior season yet. I don't remember Floyd touting any others, save maybe Vince Hunter, as being that college ready. That MVP honor Smith just received gives me some hope that CTF evaluated this one correctly. We just need someone who can get him the ball.

Also, judging by that pic of Smith, he is definitely closer to 230 lbs than he is to 180. Get him on the weights this summer and into fall and he could be a beast. 11 boards in that all star game. I like!
 
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FanatiCoog said:
I'll take a state all star game MVP any day.

One quote that keeps looping around in my mind is that, last November, Floyd specifically mentioned that if Smith was on the roster "right now", he'd make an impact on the floor. Smith wasn't even into his senior season yet. I don't remember Floyd touting any others, save maybe Vince Hunter, as being that college ready. That MVP honor Smith just received gives me some hope that CTF evaluated this one correctly. We just need someone who can get him the ball.

Also, judging by that pic of Smith, he is definitely closer to 230 lbs than he is to 180. Get him on the weights this summer and into fall and he could be a beast. 11 boards in that all star game. I like!
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Senior year highlights from Tirus' twitter from today:

https://app.krossover.com/intelligence/reel/183725
 
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WOW!!!!!!
That would be the stud we've been praying for. He is going to be a presence and it'll be hard to keep him out of the lineup.
Thanks Lil Train. You came through big time.
 
No I was asking a ? About him! I had mentioned it very early that I thought this was a huge pick up and I thought someone had said he had grade issues? Which was why I was asking if there was any truth to it?
 
I think it was because he 'withdrew' his commitment from a power 5 school in Mississippi (Ole Miss maybe?). This could make some question his grades because that is similar to what happened with January and Sandifer. Anyway, he looks pretty strong and good competition for Thomas. Hopefully that will improve both of them and the team. He kind of reminds me a bit of Kenny Thomas his junior year at Austin high school, except Tirus is playing against better talent.
 
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