Recruiting rankings.... UTEP dead last again.

[MinerInWisconsin]

Every year we discuss recruiting rankings and how meaningless they can be. While that may be true, it is a little disconcerting to constantly see UTEP FB recruiting at or near the bottom. Is Kugler and staff really doing a poor job of recruiting and that's why UTEP struggles to get a few wins each year? Or, is UTEP going to now become a solid team in spite of the recruiting rankings. UTEP is the only FBS school with zero 3 star players, although QB recruit Fernandez was a 3 star a couple of days ago and now is listed as a 2 star. UTEP is ranked 134th as of now just prior to official signing of players. That is lower than some FCS schools. The only FBS school with a lower ranking is NMSU.

UTEP has ranked last in C-USA recruiting rankings each year under Kugler. This is from:

http://247sports.com/Season/2017-Football/CompositeTeamRankings?Conference=C-USA

 

[nfldude]

Recruiting is about how many can you hit on. If you can get a lot starters out of a recruiting class then you succeed. Thing is about Kugler he doesn't care about stars or hype, he cares about a responsible kid more than a player. That isn't a bad thing but their are good kid that are more talented than the kids we get. I can understand not getting a lot of 3 star to El Paso but we should be getting a handful of them. Let's see what happens today.

 

[JCorona]

Well here are the results.

2013
Ranked last in recruiting finished in a four way tie for last place in conference standings

2014
Ranked last in recruiting finished in a three way tie for third place in conference standings.

2015
Ranked last in recruiting finished in six way tie for Sixth place in conference standings. Only two teams with a worse conference record.

2016
Ranked last in recruiting finished in a four way tie for last place in the conference standing.

 

[jdubb66]

With only 12 or so scholarships to give, we could never rank among the highest inconference. Rankings take into account how many players are signed in each class.

 

[nfldude]

Any News on Josh Fields?

 

[jdubb66]

Signing at 3 pm today.

 

[pay4dirt]

Fernandez was a three star until he signed with us. That has happened before. Several years ago we recruited a three star wide receiver. TCU was also after him. Was a strong 3 star as long as TCU wanted him. When he signed at UTEP he was a medium 2 star. If Kugler were to put together a couple of winning seasons, that might not happen as much.

 

[UTEPDefense]

I am still holding out hope for Kugler and still think that the retention within his Program(which starts with recruiting/player evaluation) will eventually pay-off on the field. But at some point you have to get some genuine play makers. You can't just have a core of under recruited players without adding any playmakers on top of it.

How many legit play makers do we currently have in our passing game right now? That is my big concern. We did not sign any WR's this year and Keynan is the only addition that I see being added to last year's group of WR's.

 

[utep2step]

I am still holding out hope for Kugler and still think that the retention within his Program(which starts with recruiting/player evaluation) will eventually pay-off on the field. But at some point you have to get some genuine play makers. You can't just have a core of under recruited players without adding any playmakers on top of it.

How many legit play makers do we currently have in our passing game right now? That is my big concern. We did not sign any WR's this year and Keynan is the only addition that I see being added to last year's group of WR's.

Kug said he gas one or two in his pocket for solid transfers. Does anyone know which transfers they are?

 

[UTEPDefense]

UTEP just announced 17 players signed today, yet only 16 have been reported:

http://www.utepathletics.com/sports/m-footbl/spec-rel/020117aaa.html

Is this possibly a good sign that Fields is signing with us and is #17, but wants to wait until his 3pm signings to announce it?

Also, what happened to the Kicker?

 

[MinerInWisconsin]

A

UTEP just announced 17 players signed today, yet only 16 have been reported:

http://www.utepathletics.com/sports/m-footbl/spec-rel/020117aaa.html

Is this possibly a good sign that Fields is signing with us and is #17, but wants to wait until his 3pm signings to announce it?

Also, what happened to the Kicker?

Just watched Coach Kugler's press conference covering his new recruits. He talked quite a bit about the star rating system and why he doesn't buy it. Also said that Fields will be signing with UTEP but wanted his separate announcement at 3pm. Seems anti-climatic.

It's easy to get swayed by Kugler when he discusses his recruits and I do hope he is successful but any other college football program in the country and he would be done after this coming season if it isn't a winning one. As a coach that is the bottom line.

 

[MinerInWisconsin]

Kug said he gas one or two in his pocket for solid transfers. Does anyone know which transfers they are?

Kugler said in his press conference today that he was saving 2 scholarships until May in hopes of getting either a late HS qualifier (Will Martinez was one of those), a late JC player or a graduate transfer player. Looks like he's got some guys in his sights but has to wait.

 

[unihorn]

I don't think there's any way you can positively spin being ranked that low.

 

[El Paso Sports Fan]

I don't think there's any way you can positively spin being ranked that low.

Look at the other thread. There are people that are positively spinning it and they even go on to say that winning isn't the most important thing.

 

[ludacris_TOCUser_14814]

The Refugio kids are studs. If they played at bigger high schools, they would be enrolling at a high-profile school. That is good news for us. Good to see that James kid is coming to UTEP, hopefully he will have the impact his dad did.

 

[MinerInWisconsin]

The Refugio kids are studs. If they played at bigger high schools, they would be enrolling at a high-profile school. That is good news for us. Good to see that James kid is coming to UTEP, hopefully he will have the impact his dad did.

True that players from less recruited areas like El Paso and others will not get as good a rating as a similar player in the DFW or Houston areas. But still, Josh Fields is the only 3 and as an El Paso product, that's something. I can see 2 or 3 others is this class, maybe more, that conceivably could have been 3 star players if they were coming from a more traditional recruiting area in Texas.

 

[kickballpro]

There are some solid LB's in this class that will definitely help down the road. Redshirt them, let them develop. Kugler doesn't lose players. He will have a very solid LB core 2-3 years from now. McKee is a great get, he is super strong. May be the strongest freshman pound for pound to ever sign at UTEP. I like the size of the 2 QB's.

Then you add Fields, and this class has a lot of good things going for it.

As far as rankings and stars.

When it comes to skill guys and quarterbacks, the stars are pretty accurate. There are some many highlight reels, 7 on 7's, multi sport kids, camps and combines, etc...

But for Lineman and Linebackers the ratings aren't great at all. The services often rely on high school coaches who always upsell and the rival site moderators who may have never seen some kids play. The whole system for them is based on word of mouth and who is getting offers. The combines for OL are in shorts and tees so they're so hard to rank.

 

[El Paso Sports Fan]

He will have a very solid LB core 2-3 years from now

Well that sounds encouraging.

 

[MinerInWisconsin]

There are some solid LB's in this class that will definitely help down the road. Redshirt them, let them develop. Kugler doesn't lose players. He will have a very solid LB core 2-3 years from now. McKee is a great get, he is super strong. May be the strongest freshman pound for pound to ever sign at UTEP. I like the size of the 2 QB's.

.

Kugler did recruit for the future with the HS kids but having a good LB core 2-3 years from now will do him no good if he doesn't start fielding a winning team now. The 2 recruits listed here are going to be counted on for production right away.

Jamar Smith LB 5-11 230 Lyons, Ga. (Holmes CC)
Kalaii Griffin LB 6-1 220 Bethesda, Md. (Ventura CC)

 

[utep2step]

There are some solid LB's in this class that will definitely help down the road. Redshirt them, let them develop. Kugler doesn't lose players. He will have a very solid LB core 2-3 years from now. McKee is a great get, he is super strong. May be the strongest freshman pound for pound to ever sign at UTEP. I like the size of the 2 QB's.

Then you add Fields, and this class has a lot of good things going for it.

As far as rankings and stars.

When it comes to skill guys and quarterbacks, the stars are pretty accurate. There are some many highlight reels, 7 on 7's, multi sport kids, camps and combines, etc...

But for Lineman and Linebackers the ratings aren't great at all. The services often rely on high school coaches who always upsell and the rival site moderators who may have never seen some kids play. The whole system for them is based on word of mouth and who is getting offers. The combines for OL are in shorts and tees so they're so hard to rank.

A few years ago a rivals employee and high school scout used to administer this site after Darren Hunt departed. He explained that there is a formula used based on player stats and so forth and the number stars are representative of a players chance to play pro. 5 stars is very excellent chance, 4 is very good chance, 3 good and so on and so forth. He did state this was not an indicator on the players future ability as a college player. I.e.- Jordan Palmer was only a two star and only Gary Nord would guarantee a chance for him at qb but history showed otherwise as he was so-so under Nord's pro set/I formation attack but flourisished under Price's spread offense. So Kugler is correct but Rivals rankings are to sell subscriptions and not indicators of potential college success.

 

[EP Maximus]

Well that sounds encouraging.

I wonder what your screen name will be then?

 

[JCorona]

If Kugler doesn't have a bowl season then the next coach will come in have a good first and or second year. Then produce 3-5+ losing seasons while setting up the next coach. The cycle continues.

Until we commit big money for an established winning FBS coach and his assistants we are not going to see much sustained improvement. Look at Floyd a successful head coach at power conference schools and seven years in still can't get it together.

I'm not sure why any of us expected to see SK who has never had HC experience to walk in and have this program turned around in four years.

Only one coach in the past 50 years has finished his UTEP tenure with a winning record.

0-11
6-28
5-43
7-39
21-15
11-41
19-53
14-34
48-61
18-31

Maybe the El Paso/Las Cruces region is just cursed to shitty football.

 

[TrojanMiner]

Seriously folks, if Kugler was at a P5 school and he was recruiting 0-2,3 star guys and told boosters and the administration that stars don't matter, he'd be run out of the program quick! Only when you are struggling in recruiting do stars not matter. Price was getting quite a few 3 star guys his first few years here and the team showed promise. As he struggled for wins and his "stars" ratings dipped, so did the performance on the field. If you think stars don't matter, you're kidding yourself. There will always be those hidden gems like Thomas Howard, Quentin Demps, etc but on average, star ratings are a pretty good indicator of future performance.

 

[LaserCoog]

Well here are the results.

2013
Ranked last in recruiting finished in a four way tie for last place in conference standings

2014
Ranked last in recruiting finished in a three way tie for third place in conference standings.

2015
Ranked last in recruiting finished in six way tie for Sixth place in conference standings. Only two teams with a worse conference record.

2016
Ranked last in recruiting finished in a four way tie for last place in the conference standing.

Are those Division or Conference standing? For years C-USA East has been measurably stronger than C-USA West, so playing - and often losing to - West teams more frequently than those from the East further dilutes the UTEP's SOS and record, as well as further correlates recruiting with on-field performance.

 

[JCorona]

Are those Division or Conference standing? For years C-USA East has been measurably stronger than C-USA West, so playing - and often losing to - West teams more frequently than those from the East further dilutes the UTEP's SOS and record, as well as further correlates recruiting with on-field performance.

Those are overall conference standings. It would be a very unique season if there was a six way tie for 6th place in the West division.

 

[LaserCoog]

Those are overall conference standings. It would be a very unique season if there was a six way tie for 6th place in the West division.

Thanks for the clarification. My point, of course, was that even if East and West Division teams do finish with identical conference records, it may not be a complete indicator of relative strengths as one team annually plays Marshall, Western Kentucky, and Middle Tennessee, while the other annually faces Rice, UTSA, UNT, and UTEP.

 

[JCorona]

Thanks for the clarification. My point, of course, was that even if East and West Division teams do finish with identical conference records, it may not be a complete indicator of relative strengths as one team annually plays Marshall, Western Kentucky, and Middle Tennessee, while the other annually faces Rice, UTSA, UNT, and UTEP.

The East has been the stronger division since the start of the current team lineup. With the splashy hires and solid recruiting classes the Florida schools had it's going to increase in difficulty.

 

[utep2step]

Seriously folks, if Kugler was at a P5 school and he was recruiting 0-2,3 star guys and told boosters and the administration that stars don't matter, he'd be run out of the program quick! Only when you are struggling in recruiting do stars not matter. Price was getting quite a few 3 star guys his first few years here and the team showed promise. As he struggled for wins and his "stars" ratings dipped, so did the performance on the field. If you think stars don't matter, you're kidding yourself. There will always be those hidden gems like Thomas Howard, Quentin Demps, etc but on average, star ratings are a pretty good indicator of future performance.

Nord had a ton of no stars, one stars and two stars for his recruiting class but also brought in some who were not quiet FBS 1-A material. Nord struggled obviously, but Price brought out the best in them and even gave Nord props for bringing them in initially and those Nord recruits took a Price coached team to two bowl games. Price built Washington State on a lot of under the radar Nor Cal recruits. Former TCU coach Franchione built TCU back up with solid off the radar recruits and how can one not mention Boise?

Please don't get me wrong, Kugler should be held accountable for the underperformance, especially after a friendly schedule last year and has underachieved for the most part and that will be his downfall, but his recruits can compete at this level so the problem lies in A) his offensive philosophy and B) overall player development (which became glaring after the Army debacle).

 

[LaserCoog]

The East has been the stronger division since the start of the current team lineup. With the splashy hires and solid recruiting classes the Florida schools had it's going to increase in difficulty.

Agreed. Not so sure about "splashy" hires (Kiffin being the exception) but solid, experienced, successful hires (often young, successful coordinators from winning programs) certainly correlate with solid recruiting classes and on field performance. And yes, make no mistake, FAU and FIU are serious about becoming competitive.

 

[kickballpro]

Nord had a ton of no stars, one stars and two stars for his recruiting class but also brought in some who were not quiet FBS 1-A material. Nord struggled obviously, but Price brought out the best in them and even gave Nord props for bringing them in initially and those Nord recruits took a Price coached team to two bowl games. Price built Washington State on a lot of under the radar Nor Cal recruits. Former TCU coach Franchione built TCU back up with solid off the radar recruits and how can one not mention Boise?

Please don't get me wrong, Kugler should be held accountable for the underperformance, especially after a friendly schedule last year and has underachieved for the most part and that will be his downfall, but his recruits can compete at this level so the problem lies in A) his offensive philosophy and B) overall player development (which became glaring after the Army debacle).

Nord pushed the reset button on the program by redshirting every class in its entirety and then developing them over 5 years. The plan he had in place was so that every season, the starters would be 4th year Juniors and 5th year seniors. The focus being on development, retention, and experience. Nord would have one if he ever got to see his plan to fruition.

 

[JCorona]

Agreed. Not so sure about "splashy" hires (Kiffin being the exception) but solid, experienced, successful hires (often young, successful coordinators from winning programs) certainly correlate with solid recruiting classes and on field performance. And yes, make no mistake, FAU and FIU are serious about becoming competitive.

That's exactly the kind of movement UTEP has to do if we ever want to win conference championships and bowl games. There was a couple of good names available this offseason. The AD makes no effort to hold his hires accountable for win and losses.

Nord and Kugler have similar overall records. Nord accomplished a lot more during his lone winning season than Kugler has in four years here. BS was sure quick to pull the trigger when Price became available. I think he should have done the same this year if Dykes wanted the job. I wonder if he even reached out to him.

 

[kickballpro]

Nord pushed the reset button on the program by redshirting every class in its entirety and then developing them over 5 years. The plan he had in place was so that every season, the starters would be 4th year Juniors and 5th year seniors. The focus being on development, retention, and experience. Nord would have won if he ever got to see his plan to fruition.

 

[Tribalwarriorx]

If you're not going to recruit stars (or you can't) then you better have one hell'ava player development system!

I don't care about that whole star rating cause in the end, most fours and fives don't pan out anyway. What I do care about is player development and so far, even recruiting (getting) the kids he's identified, the development part has been lacking.

 

[LaserCoog]

If you're not going to recruit stars (or you can't) then you better have one hell'ava player development system!

I don't care about that whole star rating cause in the end, most fours and fives don't pan out anyway. What I do care about is player development and so far, even recruiting (getting) the kids he's identified, the development part has been lacking.

I can assure you, my all-time favorite football player was a two-star rated recruit out of high school. All the way to the bigs.

 

[MinerInWisconsin]

Since this is obviously a critical year for coach Kugler and his plan, I thought this info might offer all of us a little encouragement.


Boise St finished 2003 recruiting season 110th in the nation, only one 3 star recruit and at the end of the 2003 football season they were 13-1 including a #15 ranking in the polls and beat TCU in the Ft Worth Bowl. In 2002 their recruiting class had zero 3 star recruits and that year the team ended 12-1 and beat Iowa St in the Boise Humanitarian Bowl. They won the 1999 Humanitarian Bowl over Louisville and the 2000 Humanitarian Bowl over UTEP. They obviously started out by recruiting unheralded players and developed them into a solid team without star power. Now, with their record of success, they do recruit a larger number of 3 star players.

 

[DaMinerMan]

Bottom line with all of these kids is whether they can run. UTEP has been lacking team speed on defense and at the wide receiver position for many years. Without any deep ball threats to stretch the field the replacement for Aaron Jones is going to have a rough time next year. Although I can see Fields having some success with his speed and vision. Hopefully they can pick up a couple of fast JC receivers in the late signing period to help out.

 

[Tribalwarriorx]

Since this is obviously a critical year for coach Kugler and his plan, I thought this info might offer all of us a little encouragement.


Boise St finished 2003 recruiting season 110th in the nation, only one 3 star recruit and at the end of the 2003 football season they were 13-1 including a #15 ranking in the polls and beat TCU in the Ft Worth Bowl. In 2002 their recruiting class had zero 3 star recruits and that year the team ended 12-1 and beat Iowa St in the Boise Humanitarian Bowl. They won the 1999 Humanitarian Bowl over Louisville and the 2000 Humanitarian Bowl over UTEP. They obviously started out by recruiting unheralded players and developed them into a solid team without star power. Now, with their record of success, they do recruit a larger number of 3 star players.

Not trying to be Debbie Downer (but I clearly am, lol); the only difference is Coach Pete had a staff that focused on player development. It's the same system he's installed at Washington. I've long said player development should be the priority for UTEP. Texas is too big a state, with a lot of high value programs competing for talent. If you can't compete on that level then you need to find kids you can develop and develop them.

The question for every program and every team is "what's your identity?" I think we all know Kug's wants a physically tough program and we've seen flashes of it. However, that hasn't manifested itself consistently and across the board.